The One Where Patti Takes On the Chat Boards

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Warning: The following blog post is going to make me either incredibly popular in the theatre community or incredibly unpopular in the theatre community.

As an actor, and as a human person, I’ve always cared about what others think. Whether it was that mean girl in fifth grade who made fun of my glasses, or the boys who teased me about my braces, or the popular girl in junior high who pointed out that I wasn’t wearing the right brand of jeans, I cared deeply. And so on and so forth, until I found myself in a career where it legit revolves around what other people think. Am I good enough, am I pretty enough, am I friendly enough, etc. We get reviews written about us, which other people are allowed to, and overwhelmingly encouraged to, read when they are delivered to their inbox or front doorstep. Hundreds, sometimes thousands of people pay cash money to come sit in a dark room and watch us work. This is what we do and we love it.

Just two days ago, I was in the middle of rehearsing for a really fantastic new Broadway musical called “Nerds” when we got shut down because our financing fell through. Literally, we were singing the lyric, “Live your dream” when our producer walked in the room. You just can’t make this stuff up. We are devastated, we are in varying states of shock, we are angry. But most importantly, we laughed as we sobbed and decided to perform our show one time for family, friends and the designers who worked their asses off for this show. Because as angry as we are, we choose love.

The immediate outpouring of support and love from our fellow theatre nerds and friends and families and fans was outstanding, overwhelming, and breathtaking. A devastating moment in all of our lives was wrapped in waves and waves of positive energy and text messages and emails and pizza and a CRAP TON of booze. I found myself at home, with beautiful fresh roses from my husband (who was out of town) blooming on the table, sitting with 4 of my girlfriends who had dropped everything to feed me, bring me cookies and wine, listen and let me cry. It’s hard to sink too low when you have that kind of beauty in your life.

And that’s awesome! So why are some people going to hate me, you ask? Because there’s also an annoying, petty, gossipy, catty side to our business that seems to creep up over and over again. For all of you non-theatre peeps, there are various websites dedicated to theatre and Broadway. Playbill is one, as well as Theater Mania, Broadway.com, and Broadway World. They are all wonderful in their individual ways, and over the years I have been able to count many of their journalists and photographers as friends. They give us love, we give them love, they report the news, write professional reviews, take great pictures, and it’s all done with mutual respect and understanding.

And then there’s the Chat Board.

Over on Broadway World, there is a whole section of the site dedicated to “Chat Boards,” where fans and theatergoers and heck, even producers masquerading as Muggles can write whatever they want about theatre. There are plenty of genuine people who truly want to discuss and debate their opinions, connect with other theatre fans, and to listen to what others have to say and respond in a mature and educated manner. These people use the chat boards to learn and spread positivity. If you are one of those people, I adore you!

But then there’s also a nasty faction of “fans” who take our hard work and turn it into gossip, and pissing contests over who can come up with the snarkiest insult or meme or GIF, and bragging rights over who is the most insider-y when it comes to Broadway and theatre secrets. It’s snarky. And you know, I like some light snark. But it’s nasty snark. Immature and uninformed people are hiding behind screen names and posting incorrect information, passing on rumors as facts, and just generally being dicks. To each other, and to us.

“So don’t read them, Patti!” That’s the obvious answer, right? And you know what, I actually try not to. I found an awesome website that taught me how to block specific websites, and if I REAAALLLLY want to look, I have to go through the whole process of unlocking it. It’s like having to take a Breathalyzer before you text your ex. But every time I go to Broadway World, they’re there, just staring me in the face. And sometimes the temptation is just too great. They’re the 3rd column on the top, beating out other categories, such as “Jobs” and “Students.” Only “Sections” and “Shows” are more important. I have many friends who have gotten upset over things that are said on them. I’ve had to explain to my parents multiple times that the people posting on them most likely do not know what they are talking about. Even if I don’t personally read them, they are ever present.

So I’m going to do the only thing I know how, and I’m going to write about it. I took some time this morning, and I searched those goddamn boards for any mentions of Nerds, or of me. And now I’m going to respond to some of them. And then I’m going to ask Broadway World to shut them down. Because this is just a teeny tiny blip in the chat board map, but I think it will give you a pretty great idea of how bad it gets.

First, there was this exchange when our show got announced:

the guy who wrote the music for this show is an executive at Jujamcyn. is the longacre a Jujamcyn theater? if so, then that’s how they got it. even with such a terrible show like this. -JM 226 1/14/16

The Longacre is a Shubert house. -(screen name withheld)  1/14/16

why wouldnt his own employer find a theater for his show -JM226 1/14/16

They’re referring to Hal Goldberg, our brilliant composer who happens to work for the Jujamcyn organization. This theatre fan knows sooooo much about how Broadway shows actually come to fruition, that he/she assumed that all you have to do is work for a theatre company. Geez, if I had known that, I would have gotten a front office job years ago.

Then there was this gem:

How lucky we are to be alive right now to decide between seeing Disaster or Nerds on Broadway. What a vibrant era of artistry in which we live. -BroadwayConcierge 2/11/16

I’m guessing that’s sarcasm? And also, please note the requisite Hamilton reference.

This one popped up in a thread about the first preview being delayed by one day:

Wow, this news should be shocking to no one. This show is already a mess. Maybe it’s a simple score with simple script and staging, hence they only need 5 weeks of rehearsal.     -Gypsy101 2/12/16

Okay, so here’s some guy, who maybe saw the show in Philadelphia a few years back, or North Carolina, or the NYMF show about 10 years ago. But said guy has not seen a single moment, script page, or photograph from the current production. Also he posted this 10 days before we started rehearsals. So…..yeah. Obviously an informed and highly researched opinion.

Then we have this, which was posted before our cast was announced:

LightsOut90 said: “(Name withheld) is apparently reprising his role from the 2013 production.“

I hope he’s not playing either Jobs or Gates because neither of them are mentally retarded. -ClydeBarrow 2/19/16

WOW. Wow. This is offensive for more than a million reasons. As I’m typing this my foster puppy is crying in his sleep, and I’m pretty sure it’s because this upsets him as much as it upsets me. So not only does this guy insult an actor in the most degrading, cruel way, but he disgustingly insults an entire population of people, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with this show. Ironically, ClydeBarrow lists me as one of his favorite performers. I’m flattered, and I thank you, but what I would really like is for you to be a better person.

These next few are some of my favorites! On the day the cast was announced:

I feel bad that such people like Patti, Lindsay, and Rory are attached to this. They’re all so talented and they can’t find better work? -neonlightsxo 2/22/16

It’s all about paying the bills, people. It’s a very, very short list of Broadway performers who are in a position to turn down a show of a quality they consider too low. Pretty interesting, even maybe great cast—even though this won’t be anything but a flop.             -BroadwayConcierge 2/22/16

Thank you so much for being so concerned about us and our careers. But did you ever stop to consider that the show is…wait for it….good? And that we couldn’t find better work because we jumped at the chance to do this because we loved it? And that our director, Casey Hushion, is maybe one of the most genius women to ever cross through the land of Musical Theatre? And that we would have given our left thumb to work with her? And that all of us in that cast had multiple projects on the horizon that we turned down or backed out of because this opportunity was truly incredible? And last but not least, consider this: Maybe we are REALLY GOOD at making decisions for ourselves and we don’t just work to be working, even if it’s scary to say no to something. If that was the case, we would all be working on shows every single day of the year. But we wait until the good things come around, the things that make sense for our families and careers and personal lives. And this, neonlightsxo, was a really, really good thing.

And then there’s this guy in a thread about the Tonys:

I WANT LINDSAY MENDEZ TO WIN! oh wait… too late. -Call_me_jorge 3/9/16

Okay, so you’re just a dick.

Now we got some truly loving support from Lesli Margherita, who tweeted the following:

Takes millions ($ and peeps) 2 put up a Bway show & when it doesn’t work it’s💔so think before u write assy stuff on a blog/hell board

Now I have never met Lesli, but I adore her from a distance for her insane talent and take no shit attitude. She’s beloved in the theatre community for her sharp hilarity and her big heart, and this tweet makes me even more obsessed with her. One of the responses to this tweet on the BWW message board is the following:

Lesli Margherita calling this message board a “hell board” is kind of rude. People say nice stuff about her all the time on here. -gypsy101 3/8/16

And we are back to our friend Gypsy101! So because people say nice stuff about Lesli, she doesn’t get to dislike the board? Even if posters are slaying her friends and shows left and right? She’s not allowed an opinion because people say she has a great voice, which I’m fairly certain she’s very confident in already, thank you very much?

And, there was one thing that kind of bugged me about Lesli’s tweet. I understand that no one likes it when people talk about them or what they do etc in a negative light. However, I’ve felt that if you’re in a profession where you’re opening yourself up to the public, comments, good bad and otherwise will occur. It happens in sports, TV/film politics and music etc. What makes Broadway any different? I get it, there are things that people shouldn’t say or things that get too out of hand in terms of commenting etc. But, it is going to happen. -Islander_fan 3/9/16

So because people are legally allowed to say shitty things about anyone and anything they want, you want to be an asshole too?

I love Broadway World. I have been writing recaps and blogs and features for them for the past few years, and I’ve made a few very good friends who work for them. I think they do a fantastic job of promoting theatre in new, exciting and creative ways. I will always say yes to interviews, article requests, etc from them. There is no denying that they are a major force in the Internet/Broadway connection.

But for these boards to exist on a website like BWW, one that is all about the joy and love and passion and artistry of theatre, is a direct contradiction of everything they stand for. They love and support actors and directors and creators and designers and dressers and  box office staff and ushers and the awesome people who stand in Times Square when it’s 20 degrees outside passing out flyers for shows. So I want to know why they would willingly cultivate a cesspool of ignorance and negativity? Many of these posters are mean to us, and they are just as mean to each other. I’m sure the traffic flow has something to do with it, as this is quite a popular destination, but is it enough?

I am officially asking you, Broadway World, to take down your chat boards. Create a whole new website for them that has nothing to do with the incredible content you generate. But placing that negative bullshit next to a joyous article about a Broadway show opening does not make any sense to me. To be clear, I’m not asking for them to be shut down forever. Everyone is entitled to express their opinions as loudly as they want, just like I am right now. But they should be their own entity entirely, because much of the time, they are not in the spirit of creating, and cultivating art, and supporting people who are taking real risks to do what they love.

To all of you who I have quoted, or who just want to say hello, please introduce yourself to me. I’m on Twitter. I’m on Facebook. I would love to know who you are and see your faces so I can remind myself that you are also an actual human and not just an angry, nasty Gollum who finds sick joy in other people’s failure (cause that’s kinda how I picture you). We make ourselves vulnerable every single night on these stages, and now I’m asking that you make yourself vulnerable as well.

One last random chat board gem, in reference to the high note Glinda sings at the end of “Thank Goodness” in Wicked:

CATSNYrevival said: “Don’t they just have someone off stage singing her high note at the end of “Thank Goodness?”“

No. Most Glindas can hit it with the exception of a few. (Name withheld), (Name withheld) and Patti Murin couldn’t hit it and usually a Glinda understudy that is onstage in her own track sings it instead. -mailhandler777 8/29/15

Mailhandler777, I don’t know where you get your bunk ass information from, because I sang the shit out of that high C, as well as every other note in that show. So SUCK IT, and go handle your mail elsewhere.

UPDATE: Robert Diamond, the founder and creator of BroadwayWorld, reached out to me within a half hour of this posting. He was immediately open to a dialogue that can lead to change for the better (sorry, I couldn’t help it), and rolled out a new feature, a “report to mods” button that exists on each individual post. It’s been in development for a while now, and Robert rushed it through to show how serious he is about improving the boards. We have a lunch meeting this weekend, where we will collaborate and most likely hug, and see where this goes. Thank you, Robert, for being so understanding and caring about this entire community.

UPDATE: I changed some wording after realizing that I made it sound like I don’t read the boards at all. I do at times, whether it is pure curiosity, or because it does provide information. I apologize for that miscommunication, which was entirely my fault. 

CdDKAXIWAAA4waT

128 thoughts on “The One Where Patti Takes On the Chat Boards”

  1. Pingback: A New Golden Age. The Week in New York Theater. | New York Theater

  2. Hi, Patti-

    My friend Ben Roseberry had posted the link to this last week, and I’m just getting around to writing my response. I don’t think forums belong on BWW, truthfully. I think they should be an entirely different site altogether. I think the fact that they even HAVE forums on there is completely unprofessional. I agree with the above comments; negativity is distasteful. And it’s not even ABOUT negative reviews, it’s people who have no business speaking on these things with not only some kind of self-appointed authority (most of their information being wrong) and downright cruelty. Out and out cruelty, for utterly no reason. Like, don’t you fools have anything better you could be doing with your time? Aren’t there dolphins to save? I don’t know, it’s just so counter productive to me!

    It’s not even censorship–it just has no place in the realm of professionalism and BWW should remove them in the interests of their own reputation, or move it to a different site/ server. An electronic equivalent to what is little more than middle schooler nonsense discredits BWW and makes it look amateurish. Point blank.

    A few years ago, I fell serious victim to an anon wank meme for the Les Miz “fandom” community. I was never really part of it, but I had done some paintings for my friends in the touring cast, so there was, for all intents and purposes, fan art that existed under my name. I was utterly gobsmacked by what these people were saying about me–people I didn’t know, whom I had never met (and I never really interacted with “fandom,” so these was an extra shocker to me) attacking me, some of them on a VERY personal level. It was awful. I had no idea who these people were (anon or not), but they were attacking my art, me, my personal friendships, etc. . I think the mods or whomever have since removed all of the posts regarding other people/ non-fiction related entries, but it’s forever soured my interactions with other people online. Like, look, kids, I’ve been illustrating for almost a decade at this point. If I want to give my friends art, why does it put such a bee in your bonnet? You have utterly nothing better to do than continuously refreshing an anon meme and writing unkind (and untrue) things about people you don’t even know? Please.

    The internet, for all the good it can do, has really just brought out the worst in humanity, and put it on full display for a global audience. And, honestly, I have nothing but secondhand embarrassment for people who stand by the nasty things they say. Again, can’t we be out there saving dolphins or something? Just a thought. :’)

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    • >>>It’s not even censorship–it just has no place in the realm of professionalism and BWW should remove them in the interests of their own reputation, or move it to a different site/ server.

      The internet needs to understand: When the government controls your website, that’s called “censorship”. When you control your own website, that’s called “EDITING”. Before the internet, EDITING was how printed publications enforced standards. Looking at the internet today, it’s my opinion that we could all use a whole lot more of it.

      There will always be places on the internet where you can be a dick, and I’m fine with that, but certain people seem to think that the whole internet should be dick-friendly, that 4chan, and reddit, and youtube and the Huffington Post, and the New York Times should all be subject to the same freedom to be awful, that this is the only way to protect diversity, but I think this only going to produce a dreadful uniformity.

      There’s good and bad uses of editing, and there’s been times when my own writing was discarded by someone, and I didn’t agree, but without the right to edit your own publication, there is no freedom of the press, and editing is how we have standards. There are things that are too stupid, ugly, or mean to for my blog or my youtube comments. If it’s both 1) too obnoxious to ignore and 2) to stupid to reply to, it’s already gone.

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  5. I already replied to you on Twitter, but I felt like I needed to voice my opinion in a little more than 140 character (and I’m just typing this for the second time because I was stupid accidentally clicked “Refresh” before I posted it…………I’ll try to remember all the things I said)

    I first started using the BWW forum about a year ago, and was spending a lot of time on there, and then stopped entirely and took a break from it for several months. I’m now back, but limiting myself to certain “save” topics, where I feel like I’m not going to get roped into a certain type of “discussion” or bullying. I like the topics where people share rush/lottery reports and ones where visitors ask for advice on what shows to see. Those are my favorite!
    The reason why I stepped away is precisely what you are talking about here. And to underline your point even further, I know some of the people you have called out solely based on there comments about you and NERDS to be rude and disrespectful in a great variety of topics.

    I hate that some people can’t voice criticism without being mean and crude. I hate that some people say things like “this show is awful, it shouldn’t be on Broadway” without giving any kind of explanation for their opinion. Someone may not like a show, and someone else may love it, and you can both be right. After all, this is theater, it’s about art where everything comes down to personal taste and preference. There’s a great quote that I had to think a lot about in the last few days “If you can’t say anything nice about a person, you shouldn’t say anything at all.” If you can’t spend a few minutes to think about a show you’ve seen, even one you didn’t like, and evaluate why you didn’t like it and find a few things you did like and something you can take away from it, whether it be a performance, or set design or a specific moment in the show, or the musicians in the pit, then I’m not sure you should sprout your opinion as fact. I like to think there is no such thing as a perfect show, and none where everything is terrible. Spend a little time to think about that and you might be surprised what you discover. That doesn’t mean everybody needs to love everything. I certainly don’t love every show or performance I see, I don’t agree with critics all the time, or with awards. But I’m also aware that nobody sets out to make a bad show. I know that
    a) it may just not be my thing and
    b) I couldn’t do any of that, let alone do it better and
    c) sometimes things just don’t work out the way everybody hoped and wished it would.

    But some of the posters on the board appear to want shows to bad and fail and seems to take joy in tearing them down and apart. And I don’t get that. Yes, you can be critical, but how can you call yourself a theater fan if you find joy in a show, a show many people poured so much of their hearts and souls and blood and sweat into, simple doesn’t come together in a way the hoped it would? Personally, it makes me sad when that happens.

    Most importantly though, I don’t understand how those people still think they ever did anything wrong and are defending the things they said. The things you brought up in your post have nothing to do with free speech, or not being allowed to criticize or not like a show or performance or whatnot. It’s all about the WAY it’s being said. It’s about being respectful to your fellow human beings, about not being mean or rude or crude. It blows my mind that one of the comments on here said it’s totally cool to call someone a cunt. I’m sorry, but in what universe is that okay? Even if it wasn’t “bullying” it’s silly plainly rude and wrong. If people say thing like that in real life they are (hopefully) called out on it and asked to watch their language and be a little more respectful. Why should it be different online? MANNERS go a long way, and there is a way to be truthful and kind at the same time if you just make a tiny bit of effort. The things you brought up have absolutely nothing to do with censorship, but everything to do with manners and respect.

    I’m personally very glad you brought this up, Patti, because I would love to spend more time on the forum and talk theater, but there are too many people who ruin in the experience. These are not people I would choose to hang out with in “real life” and I won’t put up with them online. But it’s sad and I don’t think it has to be that way.
    I’m not sure how the changes that BWW implemented are going to be helpful, since it mostly it’s about bullying and abuse, but about manners (or lack thereof) and respect, and the way people say what they want to say, but at least it’s a start and it got it out into the open and people talking about it. And it’s nice to know I’m not the only one who felt that way.

    For taking all of this on your shoulders I want to give you a virtual hug and high-5 and just let you know that it’s not “just” the theater community that’s behind you, but also some of us on the other side, us fans, us posters of this forum, who don’t like the attitude on there. Thank you, Patti!

    P.S. My real name is Iris Moebius, I currently live in NYC and I see a LOT of theater.

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  6. I already replied to you on Twitter, but I felt like I needed to voice my opinion in a little more than 140 character (and I’m just typing this for the second time because I was stupid accidentally clicked “Refresh” before I posted it…………I’ll try to remember all the things I said)

    I first started using the BWW forum about a year ago, and was for a while spending a lot of time on there, and then stopped entirely and took a break from it for several months. I’m now back, but limiting myself to certain “save” topics, where I feel like I’m not going to get roped into a certain type of “discussion” or bullying. I like the topics where people share rush/lottery reports and ones where visitors ask for advice on what shows to see. Those are my favorite!
    The reason why I stepped away is precisely what you are talking about here. And to underline your point even further, I know some of the people you have called out solely based on there comments about you and NERDS to be rude and disrespectful in a great variety of topics.

    I hate that some people can’t voice criticism without being mean and crude. I hate that some people say things like “this show is awful, it shouldn’t be on Broadway” without giving any kind of explanation for their opinion. Someone may not like a show, and someone else may love it, and you can both be right. After all, this is theater, it’s about art where everything comes down to personal taste and preference. There’s a great quote that I had to think a lot about in the last few days “If you can’t say anything nice about a person, you shouldn’t say anything at all.” If you can’t spend a few minutes to think about a show you’ve seen, even one you didn’t like, to evaluate why you didn’t like it and find a few things you did like and something you can take away from it, whether it be a performance, or set design or a specific moment in the show, or the musicians in the pit, then I’m not sure you should sprout your opinion as fact. I like to think there is no such thing as a perfect show, and none where everything is terrible. Spend a little time to think about that and you might be surprised what you discover. That doesn’t mean everybody needs to love everything. I certainly don’t love every show or performance I see, I don’t agree with critics all the time, or with awards. But I’m also aware that nobody sets out to make a bad show. I know that
    a) it may just not be my thing and
    b) I couldn’t do any of that, let alone do it better and
    c) sometimes things just don’t work out the way everybody hoped and wished it would.

    But some of the posters on the board appear to want shows to bad and fail and seem to take joy in tearing them down and apart. And I don’t get that. Yes, you can be critical, but how can you call yourself a theater fan if you find joy in a show failing, a show many people poured so much of their hearts and souls and blood and sweat into, and it simply doesn’t come together in a way the hoped it would? Personally, it makes me sad when that happens.

    Most importantly though, I don’t understand how those people still think they ever did anything wrong and are defending the things they said. The things you brought up in your post have nothing to do with free speech, or not being allowed to criticize or not like a show or performance or whatnot. It’s all about the WAY it’s being said. It’s about being respectful to your fellow human beings, about not being mean or rude or crude. It blows my mind that one of the comments on here said it’s totally cool to call someone a cunt. I’m sorry, but in what universe is that okay? Even if it wasn’t “bullying” it’s silly plainly rude and wrong. If people say thing like that in real life they are (hopefully) called out on it and asked to watch their language and be a little more respectful. Why should it be different online? MANNERS go a long way, and there is a way to be truthful and kind at the same time if you just make a tiny bit of effort. The things you said have absolutely nothing to do with censorship, but everything to do with manners and respect.

    I’m personally very glad you brought this up, Patti, because I would love to spend more time on the forum and talk theater, but there are too many people who ruin in the experience. These are not people I would choose to hang out with in “real life” and I won’t put up with them online. But it’s sad and I don’t think it has to be that way.
    I’m not sure how the changes that BWW implemented are going to be helpful, since it mostly it’s about bullying and abuse, but about manners (or lack thereof) and respect, and the way people say what they want to say, but at least it’s a start and it got it out into the open and people talking about it. And it’s nice to know I’m not the only one who felt that way.

    For taking all of this on your shoulders I want to give you a virtual hug and high-5 and just let you know that it’s not “just” the theater community that’s behind you, but also some of us on the other side, us fans, us posters of this forum, who don’t like the attitude on there either. So thank you, Patti!

    P.S. My real name is Iris Moebius, I currently live in NYC and I see a LOT of theater.

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  7. Honestly, I think this really boils down to a knee-jerk reaction at a moment of particularly high sensitivity and I think that’s something everyone has experienced. It’s understandable. Every discussion forum on every topic has its share of immature brats and intentionally cruel trolls. Hell, let’s not fool ourselves and act like it limited to those outside the community of Broadway or any other community of theatre performers. If you’ve worked at any theatre, especially in a musical, you probably know full well how cruel and ruthless performers often can be towards each other (I was once literally slapped full-on across the face by another actor because I said I wasn’t a big fan of Judy Garland). And they often post these types of remarks on message boards under anonymous names. Some (not all) of the comments you mentioned do indeed seem ignorant of the facts of the industry which is annoying and frustrating. I actually don’t have a problem with calling these folks out and clearing the air with facts and it makes sense to do so on a blog rather than on the boards, where they’ll just continue to hide behind their anonymity and continue their behavior. Asking BWW to remove or relocate the boards, however, really amounts to nothing more than a call for censorship based on one’s own personal taste and convenience. Perhaps instead of taking the website to task, your blog could be used as a place to feature posts from various forums that have gotten facts wrong and you could post first-hand accounts or facts to inform and educate those about the industry, how it works, and anecdotes. Use their ignorance and cruelty to your advantage and inject some humor and positivity. Rather than playing internet police, I think you have a terrific opportunity to use this experience as inspiration to create something both entertaining and informative while leading by example with the qualities you admire.

    Step back, take a breath and try looking at the message boards in an entirely new way.

    I wish you all the best and I’ve no doubt you’ll continue your successful career.

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    • I really love your suggestions. I didn’t expect BWW to move the boards, but I also know that you can’t start a real conversation without making some waves first. I’m not trying to play Internet police, and I have been using my own humor and light heartedness in my responses! When people come to me directly, as you have, I’m better equipped to listen and learn. I hope I get to meet you face to face someday. I think you’re incredibly smart and eloquent, more eloquent than I claim to be! Thank you again for this post, and I would love to keep the conversation going.

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  8. Hi! I’ve been thinking about your post the past few days. It called to mind a great quote from Teddy Roosevelt that I thought might interest you.

    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly.”

    I also recommend reading Brene Brown’s book, “Daring Greatly,” if you haven’t already. She unpacks this quote a bit – how the words of the critic don’t matter if he’s not in the arena with you. I find it empowering!

    All the best.

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    • I love that quote. And I love Brene Brown!!! I’m very confident in myself and my performances, and I admit that I have a very charmed life. And that has allowed me to step up and speak out against what I know is affecting people’s lives in a negative way.

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  9. Pingback: » This Week on Broadway for March 13, 2016: Patti Murin BroadwayRadio: This Week on Broadway

  10. Dude, I don’t know you but I’m giving you a virtual high five. Shocked, still, by some of those nutty ass comments above but feel great peace knowing that it must take a great effort for these anonymous weirdos to lick the Cheetos off their fingers before they type the judgmental drivel on their PCs in their mom’s basements. Whenever this crap bums me out – as it has OFTEN bummed me out being in the blogging world as long as I have- I just read a little Brene Brown & ROOSEVELT , cause, indeed, it is not the critic who counts. The trolls are scared & cowardly & they will never experience the joy and elation we creators understand as our privilege and birthright. Keep fighting the fight! Namaste 😘

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  11. Anonymous cruelty in a public forum is annoying.

    However, when one begins to attempt to dictate what should and should not be said in a public forum, it’s a slippery slope down to censorship.

    Message boards and comments sections are microcosms of the real world. In them, we will always find bad with the good. It is our job to uphold our own values loud enough for all to hear.

    Your upcoming meeting with BWW Steve, however, seems like a different, more concerning route. It is not, in fact, a positive action. It is a movement towards censorship of free speech.

    It is really scary and fascist to tell people they can only say certain things in a public forum. It’s chilling. Sort of like Animal Farm.

    Even your example, “When Patti sings it makes me want to curl up into a ball and scream as loudly as I can until she stops,” is a legitimate comment for a message board – one, in fact, that such message boards were designed for. These are forums in which young theatergoers/creative writers/aspiring critics can shape and develop their own brands of humor, wit, and snark – even if they don’t ultimately succeed at being funny or even fair, they are free to try to do so here.

    To attempt to mold the content of a message board sets a dangerous precedent. You don’t know these people, and they don’t know you. These comments are not personal, and for you to feel hurt by anything in them is a mistake.

    I know remarks such as the one you made up for your example – the “curl up into a ball” one – feel like they merit a response, but when you think about it, are they really any more personal than a compliment? Why should one be removed and not the other, just because one is favorable?

    Questions I beg you to consider.

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  12. First, I want to say how sorry I am that the financing fell through on “Nerds.” I had a similar situation working in an academic research lab and I know how much that sucks – though clearly my situation was on a much smaller scale.

    I’ve been a theatre fan for twenty years – every since my mom introduced me to Original London Cast Recording of Phantom of the Opera when I was 10. I was fortunate enough to see it and several other shows in Chicago during my pre-teen and teenage years and a handful of shows on Broadway since moving to New York for graduate school nearly four years ago. I also listen to a number of theatre related podcasts.

    Thank you so much for this blog post. I rarely frequent message boards because the negatively bothers me more than it should, which is probably unresolved issues from being bullied for really stupid shit – being smart and being tall – when I was a kid.

    However, sometimes message boards do serve a purpose. Like knowing where a theater’s stage door is and they’re not all super obvious. The show I was going to see at the time was Cabaret, so I googled “Cabaret stage door location” which linked me to a message board. I don’t remember off the top of my head which message board this was it was a little over a year ago so it may or may not have been BWW, but I do remember the one killjoy that tried to actively discourage this person – and anyone else from waiting at the stage door after a show, citing the whole process as rude and disrespectful (or something along those lines). Given the level of asshattery some fans displayed at the Hamilton stage door – to the point where I almost got hit by someone’s elbow – I could see where someone might find having witnessed such a display disrespectful and rude. However, this killjoy presumed to know both the thoughts of the actors AND the motivations of the fans seeking autographs saying something along the lines of “the actors don’t want to do it because they know everything’s going to end up on eBay but they have to because it’s they’re only way in and out of the theater.” First Mr. (or Ms.) Killjoy, way to presume that theatre fans are capitalistic jerks. While I know there are some things that end up on eBay, for me personally, my autographed playbills rank with my diplomas in terms of prized possessions. One the other side, each time I have been at a stage door, there are people that haven’t come out so clearly there are other ways out of the theater – like the front door – so the assumption that the actors are being held hostage seemed laughably absurd. At this time, the only show I had waiting outside the stage door for was If/Then, so my next thought was “if the actors don’t actually want to sign autographs after shows, then why does Anthony Rapp make a point of coming out after matinees after two show days?” And this was something he mentioned on twitter, so it’s not like it was a big secret. Since then, I have also witnessed Darren Criss spend over an hour talking the time to actual speak to all the fans outside the stage door. He also thanked me for waiting so long, as I was one of the last people he got to. Again doesn’t seem like someone that doesn’t actually want to be doing that. Had this killjoy left It at one “don’t stage door” comment, I would have simply ignored it, but when people tried to point out that his (or her) generalizations weren’t true of all people, they would simply adamantly reply with their same points again. Clearly this really made an impression on me if I still remember that a year later. And that was just from one foray into message boards. I’m afraid to think what I would have found if I had stuck around longer.

    Sorry again about “Nerds” falling through (and about the length of this – I fall victim to word vomit when nervous). It sounds like the kind of show that I definitely would have loved to get a chance to see. I love your twitter and Instagram feed and have said one more than one occasion “this is the kind of person I want to be friends with.”

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  13. Such passionate theatre lovers should well know the adage that “timing is everything.” Only when hiding behind a dissociative wall where you don’t have to feel anything personally, can you so disassociate another party’s feelings and treat them in a way that you yourself would never want to be treated.

    I tried to comment on the chat board but the post has been closed. For those posters that might be following the thread here, yes you had the right to make your comments, but it doesn’t mean you should have. To attack those most hurt, most sensitive, and most vulnerable in this process is just mean-spirited. If you can’t see that, spend more time noticing how the words and actions of others make you feel.

    Of course no one is talking about the merits of the chat boards in general, or questioning their right to exist, this is a conversation about dealing with one another respectfully, and if within an artistic community we can’t do that, then the rest of the world doesn’t have a chance.

    Patti, I greatly appreciate you bringing this conversation to light. I hope good comes from it, and I believe it already has. Thank you.

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  14. But the answer still seems to be “don’t read them.” You say that you cannot avoid the chat boards because they are there on a site you visit for other reasons.

    Asking a site to remove content that you do not like (even if you do not like it for good reason) because you do not have the will-power to not click on it is simply wrong. It is like asking the City of New York to ban the sale of ice cream within its borders because you cannot resist buying a pint whenever you go to the supermarket.

    There is a level of personal responsibility that is required. Yes, the boards may be dog shit, but if you willingly choose to step in it, you cannot claim it is someone else’s fault that you are upset.

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    • I absolutely agree. But to start a conversation, you have to shoot for the moon, right? They’ve already made major changes, and there are more to come and more discussions to be had. I would actually love to be able to read the boards again and interact with people on them! So it’s step by step, until compromises can be found that make everyone reasonably satisfied.

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      • I always feel that it is wrong to limit speech because it gets someone upset. It is a bully that curtails others free speech because he or she does not like it.

        I think when you wrote, “But to start a conversation, you have to shoot for the moon, right?” we all realized that you are only concerned with getting what you want. I just think its sad that you are being rewarded for this behavior.

        Just because you got what you wanted does not mean you are right. Your ability to tolerate what is said on a board should not be the standard for speech there.

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      • That’s not what I meant by shooting for the moon. You’ve interpreted it that way. If you have noticed, I speak for a huge population of the Broadway community, and people who post on the message boards. So when you say getting what “I” want, evidence proves that it is getting what “we” want. When somebody says j can’t sing or am ugly? Fine. When they call me a cunt, albeit in a creative way? That’s bullying. That’s not discussing theatre in a mature, or frankly, humane way. When they call someone mentally retarded? I don’t care the background behind the inside joke, on a public board, it’s morally offensive. Say whatever you want about me constructively. But I will not tolerate bullying.

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      • And what I find really offensive is that you say you “absolutely agree” with me about taking personal responsibility…but were willing to put that principle aside so that you could “start a conversation.”

        Do you plan on taking personal responsibility in the future? Not taking personal responsibility seems to be working for you…

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      • Isn’t everything I’m doing right now taking personal responsibility? Trying to find a compromise that makes every party involved a little bit happier? Putting myself and my reputation on the line for saying something I believe in, yet was fully aware would make people turn on me the way they have? Publicity was not my aim. Press was not my aim. I act of love, not fear. I learned that a while ago, and refuse to settle less than every single one of us, including you, deserve.

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      • Calling you a cunt is not pleasant, but it is not bullying. What is bullying is preventing you or anyone else to respond. Or even call you names in the first place.

        The thing about ethics are, you have to live by them even when you do not like what happens as a result. I would consider you the bully for trying to be the arbiter of what people can and cannot say.

        Free speech will never make everyone happy. That is why it is a hard principle to live with. You are offended by people’s words–but many people are more offended by negative actions such as those you are demanding.

        But I guess we are in the age of Trump where the response to speech we do not like is to banish the speaker. This does seem to be more and more acceptable to people. But might does not make right.

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      • So according to that definition, verbal bullying includes derogatory comments. I classify “cunt” as a derogatory comment, which means I consider it bullying.

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  15. This is often an issue on the West End theatre board I frequent. People pretending to have insider knowledge and making snarky comments whenever anything goes wrong etc. I mean, I think we’re all allowed to have our opinions (positive and negative… although even though I write a theatre blog I struggle to word negative things because the last thing I want to do is come off as mean or make it seem like I’m targeting anyone!). Some people seem to go out of their way to write unnecessarily over the top, drawn out comments without justification, and it’s just not necessary.

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  17. Hi Patti,

    I believe that some BWW board members can be rude, but I just want to point out someone you included to kindly ask for you to change in your post to “Another BWW poster” than their screen name so they aren’t lumped together with the bad eggs.

    That’s “Smaxie”. You included their reply, clarifying what house/theater company owned the Longacre. There is no offense there as they were simply stating the fact. Smaxie’s posts are always informative and never rude or disrespectful. As a long-time BWW poster, I really don’t want one of our outstanding members to be scared away.

    Sincerely,
    A Theatre Fan

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  18. I followed this link when it was reposted by a friend. I’m living in London, trained as an actress in California and after a chain of events I’m back in the UK trying to make a living in the profession over here. I love it and I expect criticism from a casting director, an agent or a teacher based on perhaps how I read a page of dialogue or hit a note in a song. What sometimes fills me with dread is getting to a stage where I am fortunate enough to be working in shows more consistently, either well known ones or fringe, but being attacked personally or those I love attacked over personal attributes just because I chose a career that is on a stage.
    I feel like I (and many friends of mine) chose this career to play make believe, to tell stories and step in someone else’s shoes for a bit. Not to have someone come away from that experience, or in many cases, not even experience it but just stand in the sidelines heckling.
    So thank you for being a strong woman who inspired me tonight and for being a voice for many who weren’t sure how to articulate their feelings on this.
    Big hugs to you, the cast and creative team of Nerd!

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  20. As someone who was solicited for opinions and help when Broadway World first began, I feel your pain. Right from the beginning the chat board there sunk into the mud and I was as angry as you at some of it. Anonymity is a lovely way to be the asshole you would NEVER be if you were facing the person you were posting about. And I used to take them on like crazy, these “people.” And then it got boring – they knew who I was and I didn’t know who they were. One day, I was seeing a show at the Manhattan Theatre Club and chatting with a pal, waiting to see friends in the cast. The pal said, “See that guy over there? He’s the guy you’ve been taking on on the board.” I knew exactly the person he was talking about and I looked over to see a fourteen-year-old kid. I couldn’t believe it. He’d posted something like “In all my years of theatergoing, as if he were fifty.” I walked over to him and said, “In all my years of theatergoing???” He got very nervous when he realized it was me, but we ended up having a nice chat and he apologized for what he’d posted. And he learned something and rarely did it anymore to anyone – he’s now in the business and working and if I contributed anything to him taking a look at what he was doing, then good.

    I rarely read the boards and usually only go there to announce a new CD release of ours, but man, when I do sometimes it’s just shocking, although I’ve learned how to tell the teens from the others. I’m so happy that when I was a teen these things didn’t exist – if I were like these kiddies (well, I wouldn’t have been) and had to read this stuff years later, I would be mortified. Then again, you do have to be a thinking and caring person to realize you’ve done something silly, but in this day and age of entitlement, I’m afraid those people are few and far between.

    Good for you writing this blog. No initials or pseudonyms from the likes of me.

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  22. My main gripe with the Broadway World board is the number of people who write off a show before they’ve seen it, or trash a show or performer early in the previews (most posters on the board see shows early in previews). Obviously the preview period is there for a reason, otherwise critics would review the opening preview.

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  26. Very well said: great post. A shame about all this horrid negativity: life is far too short enough to have bile and spite from a vocal few who crave the attention and notoriety, hidden behind anonymous screens. Kindest regards to a very talented actress.

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  27. See this is why I wish people used names! I loved every single one of you at Xanadu, but unless your name is Bobster and I somehow never met you, I don’t know who I am talking to! Thank you for sharing your opinions with me. These discussions are teaching me so much more than the mean comments people are throwing around that don’t actually invite communication.

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  28. Damn girl, you are still as fierce as you were during XANADU (I was front-of-house). It’s amazing and sad that this has gone on forever–on ATC before it and at chatty dinners pre-internet.
    No one can love every show but personal attacks or dissing something unseen are disgusting. I so remember the mumblings about XANADU or WICKED early on (“Poor Kristin and Idina, stooping to new lows” someone once typed with glee). It seems like every few years there’s the “SHOW OF THE MOMENT is the best show ever and if you don’t think so you should DIE!!!!!!!!!” kind of insanity that can intimidate and frustrate.
    Brava for such an intelligently passionate piece. Any show that goes so far and doesn’t get to start is a heartbreak (and Hal is a friend).

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  30. Whatever you do, don’t read the Yahoo comments sections! I’ve been on dozens and dozens of chat boards over the years. They are all like this. BWW is no worse than any of them. They all have serious, interesting posters, and they all have trolls that are mean for sport, and lonely people making themselves feel better about themselves by being snarky to others. It’s anonymous and thus it will always draw an element of mean/crazy. There is no way to prevent that.

    That said, you are in a profession, just like politicians and celebrity chefs where you present yourself to the public and are rewarded handsomely for doing so. The nature of the business, since long before the internet came along, is that the public will build you up and tear you down. It comes with the territory. Grow a pair or choose another business.

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    • Oh wow, this post started out so friendly! And I actually don’t agree with the theory that just because I put myself out there means people can critique me in a cruel way. I don’t give a shit if people don’t think I’m talented or pretty or skinny enough. What I care is when they spread false information about things they don’t know about, and when they find pleasure out of finding incredibly creative ways to insult people. Would you want somebody to say you were mentally retarded in a public forum? I’m guessing no. Just because we are sometimes rewarded handsomely for what we do doesn’t mean we need to make up for those handsome rewards by allowing ourselves to be skewered online. I have a pair, bobtastic, and I used it to write the blog that you’re commenting on.

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  31. Patti– Your post is so on target and I think it’s about time someone in the biz said what you did. It’s the ignorant and Trump-like yahoos on these boards that spoil it for those of us who would like to share opinions in a civilized manner.

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  33. I only recognize a few of the names you listed and that just goes to show what BWW has become. I used to post on BWW a great deal – I’m listed as a “Broadway Legend” there. But, I haven’t been there in quite some time. What used to be a fun place to talk Broadway (with a side of snark) has turned into one of the ugliest pissing contests on the internet. I’m trying to get my book published and just have no room for negativity like that right now.

    There’s always been a light level of nastiness there. I was a lurker before I finally started posting in 2007 and a few posters would follow me around and say things such as “Don’t listen to her – she just signed up to talk about “Grease: You’re the One that I Want”. Yeah, I saw my first theatrical production when I was twelve – Bye, Bye, Birdie with Tommy Tune. I just learned who to avoid. There are some genuinely nice people on there but they get drowned out by the fighting.

    I was looking forward to Nerds taking it’s place on the boards and was excited about the amazing cast. It breaks my heart that this has happened to you. Yes, it’s part of the business and probably happens more often then the armchair critics even know. A new show is always a beautiful thing no matter the source material. My heart breaks for you guys. I hope to see all of these amazing talents in another show very soon.

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  34. Hi,

    I completely respect your right to an opinion and I know this was a devastating blow. I also agree that the BroadwayWorld message boards often have ridiculous, cruel posts that I try to avoid being in the industry myself (yes, really). I’m legitimately so sorry your show got cancelled, and you have the EVERY right to be devastated. I feel horrible, it is heartbreaking when this happens. This is not sarcasm.

    HOWEVER, posting a BLOG on the internet (with a message board below) stating your strong OPINION and taking out your anger on mostly teenage Broadway fans seems completely hypocritical. If you’re allowed to yell on the internet, aren’t they? You are in an industry which puts you in the public eye, and criticism goes with the territory. Message boards and the internet are nothing new.

    The victimization your portraying is pretty over the top, considering some of the problems people are facing in New York City and the rest of the world.

    You’re a Broadway actress.

    Your Broadway-actor husband sent you roses.

    Your friends rushed to your side and your tears fell into lots of wine.

    The community has given you an outpouring of support.

    So many friends, so many colleagues there for you.

    You work with hugely talented people.

    It’s really like the one percent crying that they lost $1M when their net worth is still $3B. No, we aren’t rich (this is an analogy/not literally about money), and yes, we still a struggle even being on Broadway. HOWEVER, the you are in the .001% (!) of actors that MAKE IT on Broadway. Get some perspective.

    Keep in mind I completely understand your devastation and agree that it’s horrible! I would be beyond upset.

    It is THIS POST I’m responding to that is really obnoxious, and it doesn’t take a psychologist to see you are taking your sadness and anger out PUBLICLY, on the wrong people. You’re name calling as well! Annoying posters had nothing to do with your show closing.

    Pot calling the kettle black.

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    • I absolutely respect your opinions, and thank you for sharing them. I have wanted to post a blog like this for about 6 months now, but I didn’t yet have a personal angle for it. I know a lot of my friends and colleagues have been hurt by the boards, but I did not want to simply pluck and publish nasty quotes about my friends and other people from the boards just to make a point. So when this happened, I had a personal angle. It may seem to everyone that I did this in retaliation to my show closing, but it truly was not, and I apologize for not making that clear. I see now that that was my mistake, but we never know how something will be received until it’s put out into the world, right?

      You are correct. I have an excellent life. I have never known this level of happiness, and I have never been this strong before. So it’s time for me to fight for what I believe in. I love the theatre, and I think that the message boards should be a place for theatre lovers to connect and share and learn and debate. But cruelty should not be tolerated. I understand the freedom of speech, since I obviously took advantage of it yesterday, but to feel like it is socially acceptable to call someone mentally retarded on a chat board is absolutely horrific. That does not belong in a discussion about our love or hate of theatre.

      So tell me you don’t like my voice. Even tell me the reason, like, “I don’t like your high notes,” or “You get too screechy when you belt.” But when it bubbles over into comments such as, “When Patti sings it makes me want to curl up into a ball and scream as loudly as I can until she stops,” that is neither constructive or contributing to a lively discussion. I made that comment up, BTW, its not a real one.

      Again, thank you for your post. You are very articulate and intelligent, which I admire. If you have any suggestions as to how to make the boards better, from a poster’s perspective, I would love to hear! I’m meeting with Rob this weekend for lunch.

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      • Thanks for responding. I was nervous I would offend you, but you rock for respecting a counter opinion. I hate the boards too, but I had a knee-jerk reaction. Hope a compromise is able to come with Rob. Wishing you the best, truly — and I hate that the show isn’t coming to Broadway.

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      • Oh my goodness, thank YOU! You are totally entitled to those opinions and I completely understand them. I really appreciate you sharing them with me in such a mature way. I like you, friend 🙂

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      • Hi Patti. Your pal ClydeBarrow from BWW here. I didn’t really feel the need to comment directly on your post but since you feel the need to keep bringing me up here goes. I was not calling Chad Kimball mentally retarded nor was I making fun of the “population” of mentally retarded people. There have been jokes about Chad’s performance in Memphis and how he played it “full retard” (not my words). I made a JOKE and you felt the need to harp on it but I’m more than free to do it. I think it’s pretty funny because most people don’t have any idea who you are, even people on the board, and I had you listed as one of my favorite performers. I actually was looking forward to Nerds when I heard you and Lindsay Mendez were cast. My opinion of you has changed not because you called me out specifically because like I said I make no apologies for jokes I say but because of the way you did it.

        P.S. What I find extra hilarious about this is the fact that once I read the high C thing all I could think was “I can belt above high C!” which is a reference only someone who is a big fan of yours would get.

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      • Hi Clyde,
        Thank you for responding to me. I really do respect your opinions, and I think every single person has the right to express what they want. But just because we are legally allowed to say whatever we want, however we want, doesn’t mean we always should. For anyone else reading that thread and having no prior knowledge of your joke about mental retardation, it reads as cruel, harsh and an attack on an innocent, and also incredible, man. Also, I don’t think the original joke is appropriate either. But yes, you are free to say whatever you want. And so am I. And the response from the theatre community has been overwhelmingly positive, which says to me that I am a voice for a lot of other people who feel the same way.

        I love that you love theatre. I just want you to understand how you come across from another perspective. Also, I would love to know who you are. I’m willing to meet up for coffee or a drink so we can talk about this in person. Proving my original point, you still have not revealed your name, age, hometown, or any other information to claim your comments. You are still a screen name.

        I do not care if anyone knows who I am. I don’t really know what that has to do with anything.

        I am very open to sharing ideas about this, and how we can all contribute to make this better. Thank you again for speaking up. I would love to know more.

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  36. Hi Patti-

    I grew up on the BroadwayWorld message boards. I grew up listening to BroadwayWorld radio. Once I turned 14 and my parents let me take the bus into the city from jersey by myself, I came in as often as I could: standing in the student rush line for hours, using the bathrooms at the Marriott marquis, killing time before showtime in toys r us, waiting at the stage door for a chance just to meet some of the coolest, most talent people I’ve ever seen… And then coming home and talking all about it all on the bww message boards. It was always a thrill when an anonymous user would reply to my post with”I was there too! Wasn’t Idina great last night?” Etc. I made friends through these boards, with other people like me- teenagers who loved Broadway and wanted so much to be a part of it in any way we could. I grew up there.

    I haven’t been on the boards in years. I went away to college in Michigan, so I wasn’t seeing shows on Broadway. When I graduated and moved back five years ago, I didn’t even recognize the boards anymore. The culture of the Internet changes with time, and so did the board. It wasn’t about anyone loving Broadway anymore — people were just trying to one up each other with how shitty they could be. Thank you for writing this post. It’s great to see people on the other side of it (the Broadway performers that teenage me idolized) getting involved in the conversation too. I’m sorry about what happened with Nerds — Thanks for speaking up.

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